Interview with the Good Lobby Italy and Hermes Center: Talking about impacts of AI through art  

Martina Turola and Davide Del Monte.

What does it mean for people when technology increasingly comes into our public spaces?  It’s high time to engage people from all walks of life in the conversation about AI and art might be just the tool for opening this conversation. We spoke with Davide Del Monte from Hermes Centre and Martina Turola from the Good Lobby who are leading a joint project on fostering a public debate on AI in Italy, funded by the European AI & Society Fund’s (EAISF) Ecosystem Grants Programme.  

Davide Del Monte is an activist and researcher. He’s the Director of Hermes Center, co-founder of info.nodes, and the co-author of “Man in the Loop – Research and Development of Autonomous Weapon Systems in Italy”. 

Martina Turola is a trainer and campaigner. She works on communication, research, and advocacy at The Good Lobby. 

Hermes Center uses research, advocacy, development of digital tools, training, and communication to advocate for a society where technology serves as a tool for freedom, not for surveillance.  

The Good Lobby is a non-profit organization dedicated to protecting the public interest and strengthening democratic participation processes.  

EAISF: Your joint project, supported by the EAISF, focuses on raising public awareness on the societal impacts of AI in Italy. What have you learned through this work?    

When Martina and I designed this project, we had a very clear goal in mind: to bring the topic of surveillance and the dangers of AI to public attention. That’s why we thought of a cultural event, detached from academic research or activities. However, setting up the exhibition “When they see us” was something neither of us had ever done before, at least not on this scale and with such ambitions. We certainly learned that organising an art exhibition is something… very complex! Every stage, from making the contact with the artist to organizing the spaces and purchasing materials for the exhibition, required a learning process on our part. Fortunately, we quickly realized the complexity and found an experienced partner in this field who helped us achieve our final goal. 

I would say that if an opportunity comes up, we will do this again, with more knowledge and awareness about all the required steps. But in the end, it was definitely a fun experience! 

EAISF: September is the opening month of “When they see us”. What is the exhibition about? And what prompted you to organise it? 

“When they see us” explores the impact of technology on our society and digital rights by reflecting on the risks of AI and the threats of biometric surveillance through installations by Belgian artist Dries Depoorter (1991) and works from the The Glass Room Misinformation Edition project by the research group Tactical Tech. 

The title “When They See Us” is borrowed from the eponymous TV miniseries that tells the story of a group of African Americans unjustly accused of a crime simply because they seemed to fit the profile. 

The works on display use various mediums to open a reflection on the risks of discrimination and inequality that automated systems can uncontrollably amplify. 

As we said, our ambition is to create an event that is attractive not just for people already interested or aware of the topic, but especially for people who did not yet realize that innovation and technologies come with consequences that cannot be ignored. 

EAISF: When and where can people see the exhibition?  

The “When They See Us” exhibition will be open at the Salaborsa Library, Piazza del Nettuno 3, Bologna, from September 17th to 28th. 

People are invited to come to the opening talk on September 17h at 6pm, with Dries Depoorter, the artist, and Franco “Bifo” Berardi, one of the main contemporary philosophers who has published several essays on the topic. 

EAISF: You’re also actively shaping AI policies in Italy. What’s the nature of the debate on AI in Italy? What would you like to see placed on the agenda now that the AI Act is adopted?  

As important as public awareness work is, it is also absolutely necessary to engage in targeted advocacy and lobbying efforts aimed at public decision-makers. Our advocacy work aims, on the one hand, to convince public decision-makers—primarily parliamentarians and government members—of our positions, and on the other hand, to create a critical mass within Italian civil society by expanding the circle of organizations that support our positions. 

For this reason, in the first half of this year, our organizations published a policy paper on the risks that the adoption of the AI Act could pose in Italy, focusing particularly on biometric surveillance, border control, and regulatory sandboxes.  

We are quite concerned about how the Italian Parliament and government will transpose the European regulation at the national level. In particular, we are not convinced by issues related to biometric surveillance systems in public spaces. Therefore, our recommendations call for a complete ban on their use or, at the very least, minimizing it as much as possible, going beyond what is allowed by the exceptions made in the AI Act. For this reason, we have presented the recommendations to public decision-makers, informing them about technical, as well as social, issues that they may not be fully aware of when deciding how to implement the European regulation.  

We will also be participating at a Parliamentary hearing to elaborate our positions to members of the Italian Parliament who will be responsible for drafting and approving the AI Act implementing regulations.  

However, our activities have not stopped there: being aware that ‘strength lies in unity,’ we are creating the first Italian digital human rights network. We are building cooperation between organizations working in the digital rights field and organizations more widely focused on the protection of marginalized people and representation of affected communities.  

The network, currently composed of seven organisations, is planning the next steps, which will see us engaged in relentless advocacy work starting from September. 

EAISF: What have you worked on together that you’re most proud of?  

What makes us most proud is that we tried—and we hope we succeeded! —to use new and completely unusual language about our work for new audiences.  

Our organizations have very different audiences, with Hermes always being vertically focused on topics related to technology and its impact, while The Good Lobby has a broader vision on issues related to the protection of rights, the rule of law, press freedom, and, more generally, the integrity of the public sphere. Yet, our usual communication and language is quite similar. Reports, in-depth analyses, technical papers, public events, and workshops are the tools we most often use to communicate with our various stakeholders, from public decision-makers and professionals to the academic world and ordinary citizens. With this project, we wanted to change the paradigm by complementing our usual language with an artistic approach. It is not easy to combine such technical topics with a creative language, but we found that Dries Depoorter, the artist on display, and Tactical Tech’s Glass Room were fully aligned with our idea: talking about the risks of technology through art and the display of creative works. Our hope is that the exhibition will attract the attention of people who are generally not interested in our topics but being interested in art, will be drawn to our work thanks to this new approach.   

 It was a fascinating and complex adventure, but we are sure it was worth it. 

EAISF: What books or podcasts on technology and justice have you enjoyed recently?  

We are both avid readers and, to some extent, attentive podcast listeners. 

In recent months, some of the readings that have impressed and inspired us include “Atlas of AI” by Kate Crawford, “Black Box – Security and surveillance in our cities” by Laura Carrer, and “Technologies of revolution” by Diletta Huyskes. 

We do not read only essays, of course! One of the books that inspired our vision is “The Circle” by Dave Eggers, and for Davide, cyberpunk narratives from the ‘90s. 

We’ve both subscribed to “Guerre di Rete”, one of the most important Italian newsletters about cybercrimes, cyber wars and everything related to the digital sphere. 

We can recommend the weekly podcast “CRASH – La chiave per il digitale” by Andrea Daniele Signorelli (in Italian).  Martina also enjoyed “Machines That Fail Us”, a podcast hosted by Philip Di Salvo, particularly episode 3 on AI errors and algorithmic injustice with Angela Müller, Executive Director of AlgorithmWatch Switzerland. 

EAISF: Thank you!